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	<title>Comments on: Jenkin Off</title>
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	<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/</link>
	<description>The Big Questions &#124; Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</description>
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		<title>By: Tony Castaldo</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Castaldo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-382</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the late entry, but I believe the proper way to model this is NOT by average beak model, because traits are typically not blended or averaged. Traits related to genetic modification are either passed on intact or not.

Thus the proper model is to separately track the populations of sports and normals. So we begin with 10,000 members, 5000 females and 5000 males, with one of them being a sport. Say that in each generation 10,000 offspring are produced, and the sport has about 10% more success with females than do normals; thus produces an average of 2.2 offspring versus their 1.99996. Of course offspring are discrete, so this manifests itself in an extra sport within five generations. The mutation is at risk of dying out early on, but once there are five or more males with the mutation, numbers take over and the sport population will grow at the expense of the normals.

The result is not an average slight increase in beak length; the result is the mutation spreading to 100% of the population and thus a doubling of beak length. By analogy, our current human intelligence is not due to some ancient ancestor being 50 times smarter than us and passing down 2% of that genius. It is the result of some ancient ancestor being maybe 10% smarter than his peers, and using that slight advantage in understanding and strategy and planning to out-compete the dummies and out-mate them, and his children inherited ALL of his advantage and did the same to their peers, until the mutation spread throughout the population and became an ineffective advantage -- At which point the next advantage become more important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the late entry, but I believe the proper way to model this is NOT by average beak model, because traits are typically not blended or averaged. Traits related to genetic modification are either passed on intact or not.</p>
<p>Thus the proper model is to separately track the populations of sports and normals. So we begin with 10,000 members, 5000 females and 5000 males, with one of them being a sport. Say that in each generation 10,000 offspring are produced, and the sport has about 10% more success with females than do normals; thus produces an average of 2.2 offspring versus their 1.99996. Of course offspring are discrete, so this manifests itself in an extra sport within five generations. The mutation is at risk of dying out early on, but once there are five or more males with the mutation, numbers take over and the sport population will grow at the expense of the normals.</p>
<p>The result is not an average slight increase in beak length; the result is the mutation spreading to 100% of the population and thus a doubling of beak length. By analogy, our current human intelligence is not due to some ancient ancestor being 50 times smarter than us and passing down 2% of that genius. It is the result of some ancient ancestor being maybe 10% smarter than his peers, and using that slight advantage in understanding and strategy and planning to out-compete the dummies and out-mate them, and his children inherited ALL of his advantage and did the same to their peers, until the mutation spread throughout the population and became an ineffective advantage &#8212; At which point the next advantage become more important.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-286</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-286</guid>
		<description>I think that&#039;s conflating two different debates.  It seems the two questions addressed by each model are:

A) Can blended inheritance allow a beneficial mutation to have a lasting effect on the species? and
B) Can blended inheritance allow differences to persist among species members, without all species members eventually looking *the same*?

If a beneficial mutation spreads throughout the entire population (even in some weakened form as a result of the averaging of blended inheritance), then the answer to A can be yes while B is still no.

Jenkin&#039;s model:
A) No and B) No

Davis&#039;s model:
A) He thought yes, but your calculations show it&#039;s No
B) He thought yes, but your calculations show it&#039;s also No.  (Assuming that the beneficial-mutation population grows without bound, dwarfing the original which stays constant, so that effectively &quot;all members&quot; of the species eventually look the same.)

Landsburg&#039;s model:
A) You&#039;re saying Yes
B) I think it&#039;s not clear from your original post.  You said: &quot;Once again the total excess beak length goes to 2.38, but this time it&#039;s shared among individuals of a fixed population size.&quot;  But, I had assumed that the excess beak length of 2.38 would eventually be evenly distributed among the whole population.  Are you saying that it wouldn&#039;t?

In other words, I think that your models can differ on the answer to question A, but I suspect that all 3 models say that the answer to question B is No -- that blended inheritance causes us all to look the same eventually.  (And so any such model using blended inheritance should have been self-evidently wrong, because we don&#039;t all look the same.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s conflating two different debates.  It seems the two questions addressed by each model are:</p>
<p>A) Can blended inheritance allow a beneficial mutation to have a lasting effect on the species? and<br />
B) Can blended inheritance allow differences to persist among species members, without all species members eventually looking *the same*?</p>
<p>If a beneficial mutation spreads throughout the entire population (even in some weakened form as a result of the averaging of blended inheritance), then the answer to A can be yes while B is still no.</p>
<p>Jenkin&#8217;s model:<br />
A) No and B) No</p>
<p>Davis&#8217;s model:<br />
A) He thought yes, but your calculations show it&#8217;s No<br />
B) He thought yes, but your calculations show it&#8217;s also No.  (Assuming that the beneficial-mutation population grows without bound, dwarfing the original which stays constant, so that effectively &#8220;all members&#8221; of the species eventually look the same.)</p>
<p>Landsburg&#8217;s model:<br />
A) You&#8217;re saying Yes<br />
B) I think it&#8217;s not clear from your original post.  You said: &#8220;Once again the total excess beak length goes to 2.38, but this time it&#8217;s shared among individuals of a fixed population size.&#8221;  But, I had assumed that the excess beak length of 2.38 would eventually be evenly distributed among the whole population.  Are you saying that it wouldn&#8217;t?</p>
<p>In other words, I think that your models can differ on the answer to question A, but I suspect that all 3 models say that the answer to question B is No &#8212; that blended inheritance causes us all to look the same eventually.  (And so any such model using blended inheritance should have been self-evidently wrong, because we don&#8217;t all look the same.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 05:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-285</guid>
		<description>Bennett:  But the point of this post is to ask whether, in a toy model, blended inheritance *would* in fact cause us to all look the same.  Jenkin&#039;s model says yes, but it also says we&#039;d all be extinct by now.  Davis thought his model said no, but I argue that it really said yes.  My modification of Davis&#039;s model holds out hope that the answer is no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:  But the point of this post is to ask whether, in a toy model, blended inheritance *would* in fact cause us to all look the same.  Jenkin&#8217;s model says yes, but it also says we&#8217;d all be extinct by now.  Davis thought his model said no, but I argue that it really said yes.  My modification of Davis&#8217;s model holds out hope that the answer is no.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 05:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-284</guid>
		<description>Steven: Sorry, you&#039;re right, I did actually read the entire original post including the sentence about discrete genetics, but I missed the point of that sentence, that the whole thing becomes moot once you introduce discrete genetics.

However, I think Dawkins&#039;s essay makes a good point that is relevant here: Darwin and his contemporaries should have known that blended inheritance was almost certainly wrong anyway, because if that were the case, then we&#039;d all look the same by now!  (Well, maybe we wouldn&#039;t look the same if you allow some Lamarckian development of traits during one&#039;s lifetime and passing on of those traits to children.  But we should still all look the same with regard to traits that don&#039;t change much during our lives, like eye color, or with regard to traits that we don&#039;t acquire as the result of actually doing anything, like hair color.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven: Sorry, you&#8217;re right, I did actually read the entire original post including the sentence about discrete genetics, but I missed the point of that sentence, that the whole thing becomes moot once you introduce discrete genetics.</p>
<p>However, I think Dawkins&#8217;s essay makes a good point that is relevant here: Darwin and his contemporaries should have known that blended inheritance was almost certainly wrong anyway, because if that were the case, then we&#8217;d all look the same by now!  (Well, maybe we wouldn&#8217;t look the same if you allow some Lamarckian development of traits during one&#8217;s lifetime and passing on of those traits to children.  But we should still all look the same with regard to traits that don&#8217;t change much during our lives, like eye color, or with regard to traits that we don&#8217;t acquire as the result of actually doing anything, like hair color.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Desk</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Desk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-282</guid>
		<description>ref: a reasonable 19th century mind 
I&#039;d conclude that a prudent citizen of the 19th cent would have rejected the simple mathematics of Darwin&#039;s idea, that was at that time-not good enough to displace competing ideas available in that period, for which I had &quot;evidence&quot;, even if imperfect, immediately in front of me.  It took a long time to work this out, remember.  The switching costs were too high, and easily available counter-examples would make one very uneasy with an imperfect model.  Ironically, acceptance of Darwin&#039;s theory prematurely would have had the same pitfalls of religious creationism.  A supra-rational mind, 19th century or otherwise, would have remained perfectly agnostic--and that is way more work than easy credulity or defaulting to a set of beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ref: a reasonable 19th century mind<br />
I&#8217;d conclude that a prudent citizen of the 19th cent would have rejected the simple mathematics of Darwin&#8217;s idea, that was at that time-not good enough to displace competing ideas available in that period, for which I had &#8220;evidence&#8221;, even if imperfect, immediately in front of me.  It took a long time to work this out, remember.  The switching costs were too high, and easily available counter-examples would make one very uneasy with an imperfect model.  Ironically, acceptance of Darwin&#8217;s theory prematurely would have had the same pitfalls of religious creationism.  A supra-rational mind, 19th century or otherwise, would have remained perfectly agnostic&#8211;and that is way more work than easy credulity or defaulting to a set of beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Gottfredson's Apprentice</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Gottfredson's Apprentice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 05:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-278</guid>
		<description>While individual genes obey discrete (Mendelian) inheritance and not blending inheritance, there are many genes making up any particular trait, and for those not under purifying selection (eg, IQ, height) the end result is blending and the offspring end up with an average of the parental traits. (Regression towards the mean.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While individual genes obey discrete (Mendelian) inheritance and not blending inheritance, there are many genes making up any particular trait, and for those not under purifying selection (eg, IQ, height) the end result is blending and the offspring end up with an average of the parental traits. (Regression towards the mean.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Desk</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Desk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-275</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not exactly true that a trait is either inherited or not since some traits(phenotypes) are expressed as a function of the environment/this is unknowable a priori. And fits well with 19th century and Lamarckian predjudices.Also Model has to account for random wipeouts of genetic bearers not yet reproductive (infant mortality.)also very 19th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not exactly true that a trait is either inherited or not since some traits(phenotypes) are expressed as a function of the environment/this is unknowable a priori. And fits well with 19th century and Lamarckian predjudices.Also Model has to account for random wipeouts of genetic bearers not yet reproductive (infant mortality.)also very 19th century.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-255</guid>
		<description>Bennett:  I suspect you responded before reading the entire post.  The point here is to see things through the eyes of a nineteenth century reader who does not know about discrete units of heredity.  The ultimate question I want to get at is:  Ought people in 1872 have believed that Darwin had things basically right?  I plan to come back to this question in later posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:  I suspect you responded before reading the entire post.  The point here is to see things through the eyes of a nineteenth century reader who does not know about discrete units of heredity.  The ultimate question I want to get at is:  Ought people in 1872 have believed that Darwin had things basically right?  I plan to come back to this question in later posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-254</guid>
		<description>Snorri:

Here, I think, are the necessary corrections and clarifications:

1)  You are right that I&#039;ve used the phrase &quot;average sport value&quot; inconsistently in the chart on page 3 of the link. In Jenkin&#039;s case, the population eventually stabilizes at 2.38 while the sport value per individual continues to be halved each generation, so in the limit, the average sport value should be 0, not 2.38.  I will correct this in the link, together with a footnote noting the original error so that your comments will still make sense.

2)  Davis&#039;s model, taken as literally as I have taken it, implies that the number of muggles eventually becomes negative (because the increasing population of sports continues to mate with muggles until eventually there are no muggles left to mate with each other).  Obviously, one does not want to take this prediction too literally.

Thanks very much for making me get this right.  (And do let me know if I&#039;m still missing something.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snorri:</p>
<p>Here, I think, are the necessary corrections and clarifications:</p>
<p>1)  You are right that I&#8217;ve used the phrase &#8220;average sport value&#8221; inconsistently in the chart on page 3 of the link. In Jenkin&#8217;s case, the population eventually stabilizes at 2.38 while the sport value per individual continues to be halved each generation, so in the limit, the average sport value should be 0, not 2.38.  I will correct this in the link, together with a footnote noting the original error so that your comments will still make sense.</p>
<p>2)  Davis&#8217;s model, taken as literally as I have taken it, implies that the number of muggles eventually becomes negative (because the increasing population of sports continues to mate with muggles until eventually there are no muggles left to mate with each other).  Obviously, one does not want to take this prediction too literally.</p>
<p>Thanks very much for making me get this right.  (And do let me know if I&#8217;m still missing something.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/11/06/jenkin-off/comment-page-1/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=628#comment-253</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s an interesting thought experiment but my understanding is that the very first premise is incorrect, because offspring do not get the average of two different traits possessed by their parents, they get either 100% of the trait of the mother or 100% of the trait of the father.  Now, if your parents have many differing traits with different fitness levels, then your inherited traits will indeed have half from one and half from the other, so your fitness will be about the average of your parents&#039; fitnesses.  However, if an adaptive trait adds 0.1 to a creature&#039;s expected offspring count, then the child will either inherit the trait or not, so they&#039;ll either have 0.1 added to their expected offspring count, or 0.

This is discussed in Richard Dawkins&#039;s essay &quot;Light Will Be Thrown&quot; in his book &quot;A Devil&#039;s Chaplain&quot;.  Darwin&#039;s evolutionary models were &quot;pre-Mendelian&quot; which means they assumed blended inheritance.  But Darwin&#039;s critics pointed out that blended inheritance was impossible, because it would mean that by now, all humans would look essentially alike, after all the averaging out in every generation!  And it wasn&#039;t until Mendel that people realized offspring simply either inherited a trait or they didn&#039;t.

With traits either being inherited or not, I think it would be easy to show that a genetically dominant trait which adds 0.1 to your expected offspring count, will soon sweep the population.

For a recessive trait, I assume that what happens is that in the first individuals who possess it, it has no positive or negative effect on survival (because it&#039;s recessive so it doesn&#039;t manifest itself at all), so it just spreads through random genetic drift.  But eventually you reach a tipping point where individuals who have the gene, have a realistic chance of mating with other individuals who have it, and so now for the first time they will produce offspring who actually *have* the trait and enjoying the advantages, and now it starts to spread faster and eventually sweeps through the population as well.  (I don&#039;t know anything about this though so I&#039;m just assuming that&#039;s what happens because it&#039;s the only way to me that it seems logically possible.  However, there might be another way that I just didn&#039;t think of.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an interesting thought experiment but my understanding is that the very first premise is incorrect, because offspring do not get the average of two different traits possessed by their parents, they get either 100% of the trait of the mother or 100% of the trait of the father.  Now, if your parents have many differing traits with different fitness levels, then your inherited traits will indeed have half from one and half from the other, so your fitness will be about the average of your parents&#8217; fitnesses.  However, if an adaptive trait adds 0.1 to a creature&#8217;s expected offspring count, then the child will either inherit the trait or not, so they&#8217;ll either have 0.1 added to their expected offspring count, or 0.</p>
<p>This is discussed in Richard Dawkins&#8217;s essay &#8220;Light Will Be Thrown&#8221; in his book &#8220;A Devil&#8217;s Chaplain&#8221;.  Darwin&#8217;s evolutionary models were &#8220;pre-Mendelian&#8221; which means they assumed blended inheritance.  But Darwin&#8217;s critics pointed out that blended inheritance was impossible, because it would mean that by now, all humans would look essentially alike, after all the averaging out in every generation!  And it wasn&#8217;t until Mendel that people realized offspring simply either inherited a trait or they didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>With traits either being inherited or not, I think it would be easy to show that a genetically dominant trait which adds 0.1 to your expected offspring count, will soon sweep the population.</p>
<p>For a recessive trait, I assume that what happens is that in the first individuals who possess it, it has no positive or negative effect on survival (because it&#8217;s recessive so it doesn&#8217;t manifest itself at all), so it just spreads through random genetic drift.  But eventually you reach a tipping point where individuals who have the gene, have a realistic chance of mating with other individuals who have it, and so now for the first time they will produce offspring who actually *have* the trait and enjoying the advantages, and now it starts to spread faster and eventually sweeps through the population as well.  (I don&#8217;t know anything about this though so I&#8217;m just assuming that&#8217;s what happens because it&#8217;s the only way to me that it seems logically possible.  However, there might be another way that I just didn&#8217;t think of.)</p>
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