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	<title>Comments on: Playing Games</title>
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	<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/</link>
	<description>The Big Questions &#124; Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1431</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1431</guid>
		<description>Bennett:  I do not agree that this is a mis-translation.  To play optimally means to play optimally, taking the other player&#039;s strategy as given.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:  I do not agree that this is a mis-translation.  To play optimally means to play optimally, taking the other player&#8217;s strategy as given.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 02:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>Ah OK.  In that case I&#039;d say it did lose a lot in the translation since the blog version asked &quot;Assume both players play optimally&quot; :)  I would interpret that to mean to find *the* optimum equilibrium, and then if that equilibrium is disallowed (players not allowed to play red 100% of the time), then play as close as possible to that equilibrium -- not, find an equilibrium somewhere else :)
(I don&#039;t think you ever posted questions 6-10 in the &quot;original economese&quot;, did you?  http://www.thebigquestions.com/oberlin1.pdf only contains the first half.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah OK.  In that case I&#8217;d say it did lose a lot in the translation since the blog version asked &#8220;Assume both players play optimally&#8221; :)  I would interpret that to mean to find *the* optimum equilibrium, and then if that equilibrium is disallowed (players not allowed to play red 100% of the time), then play as close as possible to that equilibrium &#8212; not, find an equilibrium somewhere else :)<br />
(I don&#8217;t think you ever posted questions 6-10 in the &#8220;original economese&#8221;, did you?  <a href="http://www.thebigquestions.com/oberlin1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.thebigquestions.com/oberlin1.pdf</a> only contains the first half.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1417</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1417</guid>
		<description>Bennett:

The problem specifies that Adam and Eve can play whatever they want, and asks for an equilibrium in which they choose probabilities other than 100%.

The fact that they&#039;d both be better off in one situation than another says nothing about which situations are equilibria.  Think prisoner&#039;s dilemma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:</p>
<p>The problem specifies that Adam and Eve can play whatever they want, and asks for an equilibrium in which they choose probabilities other than 100%.</p>
<p>The fact that they&#8217;d both be better off in one situation than another says nothing about which situations are equilibria.  Think prisoner&#8217;s dilemma.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1411</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1411</guid>
		<description>OK -- but then if they&#039;re allowed to play whatever they want, then they should both play red 100% of the time!  Shouldn&#039;t they?

If they both follow this strategy, suppose Jack flips heads and calls red.  If Jill flips heads and calls red, he gets nothing; if Jill flips tails and calls red, he gets $20, so his expected gain is $10.  This is better than the 74/13 that he gets under your strategy when he flips heads.

And if Jack flips tails and calls red, then whether Jill flips heads or tails, if she calls red too, Jack gets $20, so his expected gain is $20, also better than the 100/13 that he gets under your strategy if he flips tails.

So both of them are better off if they call red all the time, than if they follow your mixed probability strategy.  So they&#039;ll call red 100% of the time if that&#039;s allowed, and 99.99% of the time if it&#039;s not.  Wouldn&#039;t they?  If not, why not?

You said Ron pointed out that there is &quot;an equilibrium&quot; when they both play red, but I think it&#039;s more than that -- it&#039;s not just that there&#039;s *an* equilibrium, it&#039;s that that is the *best* equilibrium for both players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK &#8212; but then if they&#8217;re allowed to play whatever they want, then they should both play red 100% of the time!  Shouldn&#8217;t they?</p>
<p>If they both follow this strategy, suppose Jack flips heads and calls red.  If Jill flips heads and calls red, he gets nothing; if Jill flips tails and calls red, he gets $20, so his expected gain is $10.  This is better than the 74/13 that he gets under your strategy when he flips heads.</p>
<p>And if Jack flips tails and calls red, then whether Jill flips heads or tails, if she calls red too, Jack gets $20, so his expected gain is $20, also better than the 100/13 that he gets under your strategy if he flips tails.</p>
<p>So both of them are better off if they call red all the time, than if they follow your mixed probability strategy.  So they&#8217;ll call red 100% of the time if that&#8217;s allowed, and 99.99% of the time if it&#8217;s not.  Wouldn&#8217;t they?  If not, why not?</p>
<p>You said Ron pointed out that there is &#8220;an equilibrium&#8221; when they both play red, but I think it&#8217;s more than that &#8212; it&#8217;s not just that there&#8217;s *an* equilibrium, it&#8217;s that that is the *best* equilibrium for both players.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1408</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1408</guid>
		<description>Bennett:

Oops.   I&#039;m fixing the title.  As for the rest:  The rules of the game allow Jack and Jill to play whatever they want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:</p>
<p>Oops.   I&#8217;m fixing the title.  As for the rest:  The rules of the game allow Jack and Jill to play whatever they want.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1404</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 05:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1404</guid>
		<description>I still think Ron is right here.  At least, I can&#039;t understand why he would be wrong.

If the strategy of both players playing red 100% of the time, leaves both Jack and Jill better off then your suggested mixed probability strategy, then both of them will play red 100% of the time.  If they are disallowed from playing red 100% of the time, then they&#039;ll both play red 99% of the time, to get as close as possible to the optimum, because the optimum in this case is also the optimum for each of them *individually*.  If you don&#039;t think they would do this, why not?

You said, &quot;If Jill plays the strategy I recommended, and Jack calls red 999999 out of 10000000 times, then Jill will switch to playing red all the time, whereupon Jack switches to playing red all the time.&quot;  Well yes, that&#039;s what they&#039;ll do if the rules of the game permit them to play red 100% of the time.  And if that&#039;s not permitted, then they&#039;ll both keep playing red 99% of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think Ron is right here.  At least, I can&#8217;t understand why he would be wrong.</p>
<p>If the strategy of both players playing red 100% of the time, leaves both Jack and Jill better off then your suggested mixed probability strategy, then both of them will play red 100% of the time.  If they are disallowed from playing red 100% of the time, then they&#8217;ll both play red 99% of the time, to get as close as possible to the optimum, because the optimum in this case is also the optimum for each of them *individually*.  If you don&#8217;t think they would do this, why not?</p>
<p>You said, &#8220;If Jill plays the strategy I recommended, and Jack calls red 999999 out of 10000000 times, then Jill will switch to playing red all the time, whereupon Jack switches to playing red all the time.&#8221;  Well yes, that&#8217;s what they&#8217;ll do if the rules of the game permit them to play red 100% of the time.  And if that&#8217;s not permitted, then they&#8217;ll both keep playing red 99% of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Answers, Part I at Steven Landsburg &#124; The Big Questions: Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1392</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Answers, Part I at Steven Landsburg &#124; The Big Questions: Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1392</guid>
		<description>[...] Answer. I&#8217;ve answered this one here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Answer. I&#8217;ve answered this one here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Arcane Sentiment</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator>Arcane Sentiment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1097</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s an unstable weak Nash equilibrium, so while it technically satisfies the original version of the problem, which asks for &quot;an equilibrium&quot;, it doesn&#039;t satisfy the translated version, which asks what Jack will play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an unstable weak Nash equilibrium, so while it technically satisfies the original version of the problem, which asks for &#8220;an equilibrium&#8221;, it doesn&#8217;t satisfy the translated version, which asks what Jack will play.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1093</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 03:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1093</guid>
		<description>Arcane Sentiment:

&lt;i&gt;In that case the mixed-strategy equilibrium at P(red&#124;head)=1/5, P(red&#124;tail)=37/65 exists if both players are trying to minimize their scores, but not if they’re trying to maximize them. In that case there are only pure-strategy equilibria.&lt;/i&gt;

This is assuredly false.  Taking Jill&#039;s strategy as given, Jack&#039;s payoff is independent of his strategy, so choosing this strategy both minimizes and maximizes his payoff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arcane Sentiment:</p>
<p><i>In that case the mixed-strategy equilibrium at P(red|head)=1/5, P(red|tail)=37/65 exists if both players are trying to minimize their scores, but not if they’re trying to maximize them. In that case there are only pure-strategy equilibria.</i></p>
<p>This is assuredly false.  Taking Jill&#8217;s strategy as given, Jack&#8217;s payoff is independent of his strategy, so choosing this strategy both minimizes and maximizes his payoff.</p>
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		<title>By: Arcane Sentiment</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/09/playing-games/comment-page-1/#comment-1092</link>
		<dc:creator>Arcane Sentiment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1345#comment-1092</guid>
		<description>Yes, I was assuming identical probabilities for the two players, i.e. assuming a symmetric equilibrium. In that case the mixed-strategy equilibrium at P(red&#124;head)=1/5, P(red&#124;tail)=37/65 exists if both players are trying to minimize their scores, but not if they&#039;re trying to maximize them. In that case there are only pure-strategy equilibria.

If we treat the players&#039; probabilities separately, many of the mixed second derivatives are positive, so a player who deviates from the minimum-score equilibrium gives the other player an incentive to deviate also. (It&#039;s an equilibrium only in the sense of indifference, not in the sense of stability.) If Jill uses those probabilities, then Jack is only indifferent between colors until Jill notices she can do better. If he switches to e.g. always playing red, then he&#039;s no worse off if Jill continues her strategy, and better off if she notices his predictability and exploits it. Only if Jill is trying to minimize her score should she stay at P(red&#124;head)=1/5, P(red&#124;tail)=37/65.

Actually, maybe that&#039;s what you intend? The economese version of the problem isn&#039;t clear about which direction is better, although the translated version seems to obviously intend maximizing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I was assuming identical probabilities for the two players, i.e. assuming a symmetric equilibrium. In that case the mixed-strategy equilibrium at P(red|head)=1/5, P(red|tail)=37/65 exists if both players are trying to minimize their scores, but not if they&#8217;re trying to maximize them. In that case there are only pure-strategy equilibria.</p>
<p>If we treat the players&#8217; probabilities separately, many of the mixed second derivatives are positive, so a player who deviates from the minimum-score equilibrium gives the other player an incentive to deviate also. (It&#8217;s an equilibrium only in the sense of indifference, not in the sense of stability.) If Jill uses those probabilities, then Jack is only indifferent between colors until Jill notices she can do better. If he switches to e.g. always playing red, then he&#8217;s no worse off if Jill continues her strategy, and better off if she notices his predictability and exploits it. Only if Jill is trying to minimize her score should she stay at P(red|head)=1/5, P(red|tail)=37/65.</p>
<p>Actually, maybe that&#8217;s what you intend? The economese version of the problem isn&#8217;t clear about which direction is better, although the translated version seems to obviously intend maximizing.</p>
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