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	<title>Comments on: The Big Answers, Part I</title>
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	<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/</link>
	<description>The Big Questions &#124; Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</description>
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		<title>By: The Top Ten at Steven Landsburg &#124; The Big Questions: Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1499</link>
		<dc:creator>The Top Ten at Steven Landsburg &#124; The Big Questions: Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1499</guid>
		<description>[...] Honors Class, Part II. The notable followups, of course, were the posts that revealed the answers: The Big Answers, Part I and The Big Answers, Part [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Honors Class, Part II. The notable followups, of course, were the posts that revealed the answers: The Big Answers, Part I and The Big Answers, Part [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1466</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1466</guid>
		<description>Ok thanks!

But, this is weird, what if you have an indifference curve like this:

http://www.peacefire.org/peanuts-and-root-beer.2.jpg

That&#039;s still logically conceivable under the rule that utility has to be nondecreasing if your amount of either good increases... And even if the utility function has to be twice differentiable, I think you can still have two-humped indifference curves (can&#039;t you?).

Then you can make the surrounding curves such that if Frieda&#039;s income increases, she stays on one hump, but if her income decreases, she jumps to the other hump.

Then her utility function is twice differentiable, but the amount of root beer she purchases, as a function of income, is not even a continuous function.  (And then you can structure the curves so that if the price of peanuts increases, she consumes less root beer, but if her income goes up, her root beer consumption could either increase or decrese.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok thanks!</p>
<p>But, this is weird, what if you have an indifference curve like this:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.peacefire.org/peanuts-and-root-beer.2.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.peacefire.org/peanuts-and-root-beer.2.jpg</a></p>
<p>That&#8217;s still logically conceivable under the rule that utility has to be nondecreasing if your amount of either good increases&#8230; And even if the utility function has to be twice differentiable, I think you can still have two-humped indifference curves (can&#8217;t you?).</p>
<p>Then you can make the surrounding curves such that if Frieda&#8217;s income increases, she stays on one hump, but if her income decreases, she jumps to the other hump.</p>
<p>Then her utility function is twice differentiable, but the amount of root beer she purchases, as a function of income, is not even a continuous function.  (And then you can structure the curves so that if the price of peanuts increases, she consumes less root beer, but if her income goes up, her root beer consumption could either increase or decrese.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1459</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1459</guid>
		<description>Bennett:  Nice counterexample, though as you surmise the implicit assumption (that we train our students always to make unless they have a good reason to doubt it) is that the utility function is twice continuously differentiable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:  Nice counterexample, though as you surmise the implicit assumption (that we train our students always to make unless they have a good reason to doubt it) is that the utility function is twice continuously differentiable.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1455</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1455</guid>
		<description>Are you assuming that Frieda&#039;s utility function (as a function of root beer and peanuts) is differentiable?

If not, then you can make indifference curves like these:
http://www.peacefire.org/peanuts-and-root-beer.jpg

In that curve, if the price of peanuts rises, then Frieda consumes less root beer.  But if her income goes up, her root beer consumption goes down.  On the other hand, in my graph, if her income goes *down*, her root beer consumption goes down as well.

Presumably when you say &quot;Frieda&#039;s root beer consumption moves in the same direction as her income,&quot; that&#039;s where you&#039;re assuming it&#039;s differentiable -- that if her income moving one direction causes her root beer consumption to move one way, then her income moving in the opposite direction must cause her root beer consumption to move the opposite way.

Coming up with bizarre counterexamples is fun :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you assuming that Frieda&#8217;s utility function (as a function of root beer and peanuts) is differentiable?</p>
<p>If not, then you can make indifference curves like these:<br />
<a href="http://www.peacefire.org/peanuts-and-root-beer.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.peacefire.org/peanuts-and-root-beer.jpg</a></p>
<p>In that curve, if the price of peanuts rises, then Frieda consumes less root beer.  But if her income goes up, her root beer consumption goes down.  On the other hand, in my graph, if her income goes *down*, her root beer consumption goes down as well.</p>
<p>Presumably when you say &#8220;Frieda&#8217;s root beer consumption moves in the same direction as her income,&#8221; that&#8217;s where you&#8217;re assuming it&#8217;s differentiable &#8212; that if her income moving one direction causes her root beer consumption to move one way, then her income moving in the opposite direction must cause her root beer consumption to move the opposite way.</p>
<p>Coming up with bizarre counterexamples is fun :)</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Answers, Part II at Steven Landsburg &#124; The Big Questions: Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1391</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Answers, Part II at Steven Landsburg &#124; The Big Questions: Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1391</guid>
		<description>[...] Merry Christmas. As my gift to you, I present the long overdue answers to the remaining problems from my Oberlin honors exam. The original questions are here and here; the first round of answers is here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Merry Christmas. As my gift to you, I present the long overdue answers to the remaining problems from my Oberlin honors exam. The original questions are here and here; the first round of answers is here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1182</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1182</guid>
		<description>Definitionally, utility refers to stuff that people value, so it must be more useful in determining people&#039;s preferences than just production.  One of the things I most admire about your writings is your ability to explain why it&#039;s reasonable, proper and useful to measure utility in dollars, but what you seem to be saying here is that utility is entirely separate from dollars and the idea of efficiency entirely disregards utility (except when dollars and utility happen to coincide).  Therefore, the way to defeat any policy argument based on efficiency is to show how, in that particular case, utility differs from dollars.  That seems like an easy bar, particularly in the case of free trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitionally, utility refers to stuff that people value, so it must be more useful in determining people&#8217;s preferences than just production.  One of the things I most admire about your writings is your ability to explain why it&#8217;s reasonable, proper and useful to measure utility in dollars, but what you seem to be saying here is that utility is entirely separate from dollars and the idea of efficiency entirely disregards utility (except when dollars and utility happen to coincide).  Therefore, the way to defeat any policy argument based on efficiency is to show how, in that particular case, utility differs from dollars.  That seems like an easy bar, particularly in the case of free trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1167</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1167</guid>
		<description>Bennett:  Yes, the implicit assumption in all these problems is that we&#039;re talking about small changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett:  Yes, the implicit assumption in all these problems is that we&#8217;re talking about small changes.</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett Haselton</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1166</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett Haselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1166</guid>
		<description>I think strictly speaking the answer to the Frieda question -- &quot;If Frieda’s income rises, will her root beer consumption go up or down?&quot; -- should be &quot;not enough information given&quot; if you don&#039;t know how much her income increases by.

You can draw indifference curves such that if the price of peanuts rises, Frieda reduces root beer consumption, and then if her income goes up by some amount, her root beer consumption goes up.  On the other hand, you can also draw indifference curves such that if the price of peanuts rises, Frieda reduces root beer consumption, and then if her income goes up by some amount, her consumption of root beer goes *down*.

Example from real life: If the price of pork-flavored Ramen noodles goes up, a college student will increase their consumption of beef-flavored Ramen noodles.  However, once the student graduates and their income goes (way) up, their consumption of beef-flavored Ramen noodles will often drop to zero as they start eating real food.

Would I be correct in assumping that the question should more precisely say, &quot;Given a small positive delta change in Frieda&#039;s income, will her root beer consumption go up or down by a small delta amount?&quot;  (Rather than asking how Frieda&#039;s root beer consumption will change given an arbitrarily large change in Frieda&#039;s income.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think strictly speaking the answer to the Frieda question &#8212; &#8220;If Frieda’s income rises, will her root beer consumption go up or down?&#8221; &#8212; should be &#8220;not enough information given&#8221; if you don&#8217;t know how much her income increases by.</p>
<p>You can draw indifference curves such that if the price of peanuts rises, Frieda reduces root beer consumption, and then if her income goes up by some amount, her root beer consumption goes up.  On the other hand, you can also draw indifference curves such that if the price of peanuts rises, Frieda reduces root beer consumption, and then if her income goes up by some amount, her consumption of root beer goes *down*.</p>
<p>Example from real life: If the price of pork-flavored Ramen noodles goes up, a college student will increase their consumption of beef-flavored Ramen noodles.  However, once the student graduates and their income goes (way) up, their consumption of beef-flavored Ramen noodles will often drop to zero as they start eating real food.</p>
<p>Would I be correct in assumping that the question should more precisely say, &#8220;Given a small positive delta change in Frieda&#8217;s income, will her root beer consumption go up or down by a small delta amount?&#8221;  (Rather than asking how Frieda&#8217;s root beer consumption will change given an arbitrarily large change in Frieda&#8217;s income.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1164</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1164</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Why not extend the idea of efficiency to utility, which is definitionally more useful?&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, it is definitionally most useful to have different names for different concepts.  Utility maximization is one thing; efficiency is another.  It&#039;s good to keep them straight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Why not extend the idea of efficiency to utility, which is definitionally more useful?</i></p>
<p>Actually, it is definitionally most useful to have different names for different concepts.  Utility maximization is one thing; efficiency is another.  It&#8217;s good to keep them straight.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2009/12/14/the-big-answers-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-1163</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1475#comment-1163</guid>
		<description>Is the term &#039;efficiency&#039; in economics limited to units of dollars?  Why not extend the idea of efficiency to utility, which is definitionally more useful?  In this paradigm, one would worry about destroying utility generally rather than destroying wealth specifically.  When a policy causes $10 to be transferred from the poor to Bill Gates, your efficiency criterion says that nothing bad has happened while the utility efficiency idea says that something bad has happened.  Clearly the latter is more in line with what practically everyone believes; shouldn&#039;t that mean it is a more useful tool for making these types of decisions?

I&#039;m not sure how Gates&#039; loud music applies here; that is a good argument for indulging the whims of those who control resources while this is a question of whether pure transfers are always to be considered neutral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the term &#8216;efficiency&#8217; in economics limited to units of dollars?  Why not extend the idea of efficiency to utility, which is definitionally more useful?  In this paradigm, one would worry about destroying utility generally rather than destroying wealth specifically.  When a policy causes $10 to be transferred from the poor to Bill Gates, your efficiency criterion says that nothing bad has happened while the utility efficiency idea says that something bad has happened.  Clearly the latter is more in line with what practically everyone believes; shouldn&#8217;t that mean it is a more useful tool for making these types of decisions?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure how Gates&#8217; loud music applies here; that is a good argument for indulging the whims of those who control resources while this is a question of whether pure transfers are always to be considered neutral.</p>
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