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	<title>Comments on: Wind Production</title>
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	<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/</link>
	<description>The Big Questions &#124; Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</description>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-2076</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-2076</guid>
		<description>Paulrascali, have you abandoned the field?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paulrascali, have you abandoned the field?</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-2008</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-2008</guid>
		<description>OK, Paul, we&#039;ll talk about opportunity cost, though I see that you continue to say nothing of substance. I have to assume your point is that the opportunity cost from producing clean energy technology is greater than the opportunity cost from producing some other product currently being produced from which scarce resources would have to be diverted, and that as a result, economic efficiency would be sacrified.

Of course opportunity costs are not restricted to economic value alone, and it&#039;s entirely possible that higher non-economic value from production of green energy technology would be higher than that of whatever product is affected by the reallocation of resources away from its production to green technology, thereby reducing or eliminating the (alleged) difference in the economic opportunity costs of the current allocation of resources.  

But for the sake of argument, let&#039;s stick to economic value alone. The point of my first post is that even if the current allocation of resources is more efficient in today&#039;s market, the expansion of American production of green technology (to meet increased foreign and domestic demand) is likely to alter the difference in the opportunity costs of green technology and whatever product is affected by the reallocation of resources to green technology. I&#039;m saying this would occur because the absolute cost of producing green technology would fall as production increased as a result of economies of scale and the innovation advantage of US producers. 

Now, it&#039;s been many years since my last economics course, but humor me and tell me what&#039;s wrong with this argument. AAnd just saying it&#039;s sophistry doesn&#039;t cut it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Paul, we&#8217;ll talk about opportunity cost, though I see that you continue to say nothing of substance. I have to assume your point is that the opportunity cost from producing clean energy technology is greater than the opportunity cost from producing some other product currently being produced from which scarce resources would have to be diverted, and that as a result, economic efficiency would be sacrified.</p>
<p>Of course opportunity costs are not restricted to economic value alone, and it&#8217;s entirely possible that higher non-economic value from production of green energy technology would be higher than that of whatever product is affected by the reallocation of resources away from its production to green technology, thereby reducing or eliminating the (alleged) difference in the economic opportunity costs of the current allocation of resources.  </p>
<p>But for the sake of argument, let&#8217;s stick to economic value alone. The point of my first post is that even if the current allocation of resources is more efficient in today&#8217;s market, the expansion of American production of green technology (to meet increased foreign and domestic demand) is likely to alter the difference in the opportunity costs of green technology and whatever product is affected by the reallocation of resources to green technology. I&#8217;m saying this would occur because the absolute cost of producing green technology would fall as production increased as a result of economies of scale and the innovation advantage of US producers. </p>
<p>Now, it&#8217;s been many years since my last economics course, but humor me and tell me what&#8217;s wrong with this argument. AAnd just saying it&#8217;s sophistry doesn&#8217;t cut it.</p>
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		<title>By: Benkyou Burito</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1996</link>
		<dc:creator>Benkyou Burito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1996</guid>
		<description>paul- &quot;The increase in demand doesn’t change the opportunity cost we face.&quot; I&#039;m trying to discern the value of this statement. Of course the opportunity cost remains the same, but as changes in public opinion, and the supply curve of substitute goods change, the return on that opportunity cost can change enough to warrant additional production of green tech.  Are you really a college teacher? Please remember that the cost of producing a product doesn&#039;t determine whether it should be built. iPods would cost the same to produce (in the same quantity) even if nobody wanted them. It is the demand for the product and the price they can get for it that decides whether Apple is going to make them. What school do you teach at?  Are they hiring?  They should be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>paul- &#8220;The increase in demand doesn’t change the opportunity cost we face.&#8221; I&#8217;m trying to discern the value of this statement. Of course the opportunity cost remains the same, but as changes in public opinion, and the supply curve of substitute goods change, the return on that opportunity cost can change enough to warrant additional production of green tech.  Are you really a college teacher? Please remember that the cost of producing a product doesn&#8217;t determine whether it should be built. iPods would cost the same to produce (in the same quantity) even if nobody wanted them. It is the demand for the product and the price they can get for it that decides whether Apple is going to make them. What school do you teach at?  Are they hiring?  They should be.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulRoscelli</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulRoscelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>Guess i am just too dense to understand you. You really showed me, you and the sophists would get along great. Try rereading his piece instead of spending your time tying yourself into knots
thanks
pr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guess i am just too dense to understand you. You really showed me, you and the sophists would get along great. Try rereading his piece instead of spending your time tying yourself into knots<br />
thanks<br />
pr</p>
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		<title>By: paulroscelli</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1984</link>
		<dc:creator>paulroscelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1984</guid>
		<description>First, yes it should be a snarky comment because, as the author suggests Krugman NEVER let these sorts of idiotic policies go uncommented on when Bush was in office (and good for him!). It&#039;s the hypocrisy that Steven objects too. 
Second, are you guys you missed econ 101 kidding? Perhaps the comparative advantage discussion was too nuanced? Just think about the opportunity cost idea instead. The increase in demand doesn&#039;t change the opportunity cost we face.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, yes it should be a snarky comment because, as the author suggests Krugman NEVER let these sorts of idiotic policies go uncommented on when Bush was in office (and good for him!). It&#8217;s the hypocrisy that Steven objects too.<br />
Second, are you guys you missed econ 101 kidding? Perhaps the comparative advantage discussion was too nuanced? Just think about the opportunity cost idea instead. The increase in demand doesn&#8217;t change the opportunity cost we face.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1933</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1933</guid>
		<description>Benkyou Burito makes an excellent point. Come on, PaulRoscelli. Engage in some substantive discussion instead of the dismissive one-shot quips that charaterize your blog contributions across the web. But then what would one expect from a rabid Palin supporter, climate change denier, anti-Paul Krugman ideologue? Not much in the way of intellectual content. Damn, you&#039;re pretty arrogant for a community college prof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benkyou Burito makes an excellent point. Come on, PaulRoscelli. Engage in some substantive discussion instead of the dismissive one-shot quips that charaterize your blog contributions across the web. But then what would one expect from a rabid Palin supporter, climate change denier, anti-Paul Krugman ideologue? Not much in the way of intellectual content. Damn, you&#8217;re pretty arrogant for a community college prof.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1920</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1920</guid>
		<description>Well said, Paulo. Spoken like a true Caton ideologue. Brain freeze in Canada?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Paulo. Spoken like a true Caton ideologue. Brain freeze in Canada?</p>
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		<title>By: Benkyou Burito</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1919</link>
		<dc:creator>Benkyou Burito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1919</guid>
		<description>paulroscelli-

If you have ever studied geometry, you remember that by a course of reasoning, Euclid proves that all the angles in a triangle are equal to two right angles. Euclid has shown you how to work it out. Now, if you undertake to disprove that proposition, and to show that it is erroneous, would you prove it to be false by calling Euclid a liar? Political Debates Between Lincoln and Judge Douglas. Fourth Joint Debate at Charleston, 1858.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>paulroscelli-</p>
<p>If you have ever studied geometry, you remember that by a course of reasoning, Euclid proves that all the angles in a triangle are equal to two right angles. Euclid has shown you how to work it out. Now, if you undertake to disprove that proposition, and to show that it is erroneous, would you prove it to be false by calling Euclid a liar? Political Debates Between Lincoln and Judge Douglas. Fourth Joint Debate at Charleston, 1858.</p>
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		<title>By: paulroscelli</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1915</link>
		<dc:creator>paulroscelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1915</guid>
		<description>OMG, I cannot stop laughing. thank you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMG, I cannot stop laughing. thank you</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/01/11/wind-production/comment-page-1/#comment-1914</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=1852#comment-1914</guid>
		<description>Gibbs does not say that imports of clean energy technology should be reduced, restrained or otherwise limited to protect American producers. He simply says that American companies should be more aggressive in competing in the growing market for clean energy technology. This might well result in both increased imports AND increased domestic consumption of U.S.-produced technology as the two share the growth in U.S. demand. 

Moreover, Steven&#039;s argument ignores the fact that foreign demand for clean energy technology is also growing and that Ameerican producers may win a portion of this market as well, further contributing to job growth and the overall expansion of American wealth.

And whose to say where the long-term competitive advantage lies in this market? This technology is not static, but advancing very rapidly. Isn&#039;t in at least plausible that the U.S. has a comparative advantage in technological innovation that could offset the foreign producers&#039; labor cost and economies of scale advantages.  In fact, if U.S. producers successfully exploit an innovation advantage and expand their foreign and domestic markets, the economies of scale advantages of the foreign producer will shrink and perhaps even reverse.

Finally, Gibbs&#039; statement is probably as much (or more) a political statement as an economic statement. It not only encourages U.S. producers to compete more aggressively in this market but it also implicitly supports the administration&#039;s spending and tax proposals before Congress encouraging the development and expanded use of clean energy technology. 

Ah, you may say, that&#039;s where the objection lies. Government intervention in the economy distorts the market signals that ensure economic efficiency. Too late. The energy markets are already hugely distorted by multiple forms of government support for oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear, from direct financial aid programs to tax breaks to the enormous sums we spend on the military to protect our access to Middle Eastern oil. (Not to mention the hidden subsidy inherent in the government&#039;s failure to limit fossil fuel emissions, thereby allowing producers to externalize these costs to the rest of us.)  This all amounts to many multiples of the modest support provided to clean energy.

So before you target government support for clean energy, go after the much bigger target of support for traditional energy technologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gibbs does not say that imports of clean energy technology should be reduced, restrained or otherwise limited to protect American producers. He simply says that American companies should be more aggressive in competing in the growing market for clean energy technology. This might well result in both increased imports AND increased domestic consumption of U.S.-produced technology as the two share the growth in U.S. demand. </p>
<p>Moreover, Steven&#8217;s argument ignores the fact that foreign demand for clean energy technology is also growing and that Ameerican producers may win a portion of this market as well, further contributing to job growth and the overall expansion of American wealth.</p>
<p>And whose to say where the long-term competitive advantage lies in this market? This technology is not static, but advancing very rapidly. Isn&#8217;t in at least plausible that the U.S. has a comparative advantage in technological innovation that could offset the foreign producers&#8217; labor cost and economies of scale advantages.  In fact, if U.S. producers successfully exploit an innovation advantage and expand their foreign and domestic markets, the economies of scale advantages of the foreign producer will shrink and perhaps even reverse.</p>
<p>Finally, Gibbs&#8217; statement is probably as much (or more) a political statement as an economic statement. It not only encourages U.S. producers to compete more aggressively in this market but it also implicitly supports the administration&#8217;s spending and tax proposals before Congress encouraging the development and expanded use of clean energy technology. </p>
<p>Ah, you may say, that&#8217;s where the objection lies. Government intervention in the economy distorts the market signals that ensure economic efficiency. Too late. The energy markets are already hugely distorted by multiple forms of government support for oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear, from direct financial aid programs to tax breaks to the enormous sums we spend on the military to protect our access to Middle Eastern oil. (Not to mention the hidden subsidy inherent in the government&#8217;s failure to limit fossil fuel emissions, thereby allowing producers to externalize these costs to the rest of us.)  This all amounts to many multiples of the modest support provided to clean energy.</p>
<p>So before you target government support for clean energy, go after the much bigger target of support for traditional energy technologies.</p>
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