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	<title>Comments on: Beauty&#8217;s Daughter</title>
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	<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/</link>
	<description>The Big Questions &#124; Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</description>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3057</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Philip, that doesn&#039;t bear thinking about - if I am the culmination of thousands of generations of beauty selection, it must have been really bad to be around in the old days!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip, that doesn&#8217;t bear thinking about &#8211; if I am the culmination of thousands of generations of beauty selection, it must have been really bad to be around in the old days!</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3056</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Harold-

I now see your point about the 26% differential and ugly dying out. Over a thousand generations that would certainly have taken place at those rates.

On the other hand, maybe our ancestors put us to shame in the ugly department and we&#039;re the product of this weeding out process. As the evolutionary biologists say: It&#039;s all relatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harold-</p>
<p>I now see your point about the 26% differential and ugly dying out. Over a thousand generations that would certainly have taken place at those rates.</p>
<p>On the other hand, maybe our ancestors put us to shame in the ugly department and we&#8217;re the product of this weeding out process. As the evolutionary biologists say: It&#8217;s all relatives.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3054</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=2132#comment-3054</guid>
		<description>The Gelman article is very interesting and understandable.  I read it that &quot;underpowered&quot; studies (too small sample number to find small efects) are quite likely to find large, apparently statisitcally significant effects.  I am not quite sure how the lay reader is to differentiate between an underpowered study and a small effect, or an appropriate sized study and a large effect.

My earlier comment about ugliness dying out reflects this.  I don&#039;t see where the cost of beauty is, so any effect anything like 26% would select for beauty to such an extent that there would rapidly be no ugly people.

Perhaps I have answered my question above - if a result seems to be much larger than make sense, suspect the stats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Gelman article is very interesting and understandable.  I read it that &#8220;underpowered&#8221; studies (too small sample number to find small efects) are quite likely to find large, apparently statisitcally significant effects.  I am not quite sure how the lay reader is to differentiate between an underpowered study and a small effect, or an appropriate sized study and a large effect.</p>
<p>My earlier comment about ugliness dying out reflects this.  I don&#8217;t see where the cost of beauty is, so any effect anything like 26% would select for beauty to such an extent that there would rapidly be no ugly people.</p>
<p>Perhaps I have answered my question above &#8211; if a result seems to be much larger than make sense, suspect the stats.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3052</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=2132#comment-3052</guid>
		<description>Michael M Bishop-

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting on several fronts.

Bottom line re: Kanazawa&#039;s conclusions seems to be that his results are not statistically significant, only suggestive, and there&#039;s only a snow ball&#039;s chance in hell of obtaining a statistically significant result for such potentially small effects regardless of sample size.  

This makes a lot of sense considering that, in this case, evolution working over 30,000+ years could be expected to exhibit only a small effect on current populations, too small to show up in statistical studies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael M Bishop-</p>
<p>Thanks for posting this. Very interesting on several fronts.</p>
<p>Bottom line re: Kanazawa&#8217;s conclusions seems to be that his results are not statistically significant, only suggestive, and there&#8217;s only a snow ball&#8217;s chance in hell of obtaining a statistically significant result for such potentially small effects regardless of sample size.  </p>
<p>This makes a lot of sense considering that, in this case, evolution working over 30,000+ years could be expected to exhibit only a small effect on current populations, too small to show up in statistical studies.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Metcalf Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3049</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Metcalf Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=2132#comment-3049</guid>
		<description>See Andrew Gelman do a thorough job on this here: http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2009/06/of_beauty_sex_a.html#more</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See Andrew Gelman do a thorough job on this here: <a href="http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2009/06/of_beauty_sex_a.html#more" rel="nofollow">http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2009/06/of_beauty_sex_a.html#more</a></p>
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		<title>By: jrod</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3038</link>
		<dc:creator>jrod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Do you think that the divorce rate among beautiful people is higher because the are pursued more vigorously?  This seems to make sense, people go out of there way to mate with them, regardless of marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think that the divorce rate among beautiful people is higher because the are pursued more vigorously?  This seems to make sense, people go out of there way to mate with them, regardless of marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3036</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Steve-

I think the assumption that beauty is more costly to produce (Ha! wouldn&#039;t you expect that from an economist) is doubtful as a mechanism for natural selection. Why would beauty be more costly to produce? That cries out for a hypothesis.

I think the more plausible explanation is that all women compete for the healthiest and best-provider males (I think there&#039;s some scientific evidence for this), and beauty bestows an advantage in that competition. If men place a higher priority on beauty (I think there&#039;s evidence for this too; perhaps men conflate beauty and healthiness), natural selection would favor the production and survival of beautiful daughters and sons via the healthiness/better-provider genes of the male.

However, this does not fully explain either of the two observed results Kanazawa explores. That requires a different mechanism such as the &quot;haggard mother&quot; hypothesis combined with the assumption that some mothers tend to produce daughters while others tend to produce sons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve-</p>
<p>I think the assumption that beauty is more costly to produce (Ha! wouldn&#8217;t you expect that from an economist) is doubtful as a mechanism for natural selection. Why would beauty be more costly to produce? That cries out for a hypothesis.</p>
<p>I think the more plausible explanation is that all women compete for the healthiest and best-provider males (I think there&#8217;s some scientific evidence for this), and beauty bestows an advantage in that competition. If men place a higher priority on beauty (I think there&#8217;s evidence for this too; perhaps men conflate beauty and healthiness), natural selection would favor the production and survival of beautiful daughters and sons via the healthiness/better-provider genes of the male.</p>
<p>However, this does not fully explain either of the two observed results Kanazawa explores. That requires a different mechanism such as the &#8220;haggard mother&#8221; hypothesis combined with the assumption that some mothers tend to produce daughters while others tend to produce sons.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3035</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=2132#comment-3035</guid>
		<description>Neil-

Competition in the womb is not the only venue for natural selection to have its way.

If we assume there are some women with a propensity to have daughters and others who tend to produce sons, then (1) the birth of more females than males (through the &quot;haggard mother&quot; mechanism) and (2) the higher propensity of beautiful daughter-producing girls to survive to child-bearing and to produce more children over their lifetimes, gives us a coherent theory to work with.

Over hundreds or thousands of generations these factors would result in the observed (1) propensity of beautiful women to have more daughters and (2) the difference in the proportions of beautiful women to beautiful men in the genral population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil-</p>
<p>Competition in the womb is not the only venue for natural selection to have its way.</p>
<p>If we assume there are some women with a propensity to have daughters and others who tend to produce sons, then (1) the birth of more females than males (through the &#8220;haggard mother&#8221; mechanism) and (2) the higher propensity of beautiful daughter-producing girls to survive to child-bearing and to produce more children over their lifetimes, gives us a coherent theory to work with.</p>
<p>Over hundreds or thousands of generations these factors would result in the observed (1) propensity of beautiful women to have more daughters and (2) the difference in the proportions of beautiful women to beautiful men in the genral population.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3032</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=2132#comment-3032</guid>
		<description>I still have trouble getting passed square one--the premise that beauty is more advantagous to females in humans.  Wombs, not sperm, are the scarce resource here, so males should be competing (with their beauty/health signals) to occupy them.  That is what we see in the rest of the animals--males advertising with bigger tails, more colorful plumage, heavier antlers, etc, to an audience of dowdy females.  Why are humans different?  Perhaps something to do with monogamy, but are we really all that monogamous?  What say you, Tiger Woods?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still have trouble getting passed square one&#8211;the premise that beauty is more advantagous to females in humans.  Wombs, not sperm, are the scarce resource here, so males should be competing (with their beauty/health signals) to occupy them.  That is what we see in the rest of the animals&#8211;males advertising with bigger tails, more colorful plumage, heavier antlers, etc, to an audience of dowdy females.  Why are humans different?  Perhaps something to do with monogamy, but are we really all that monogamous?  What say you, Tiger Woods?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2010/02/18/beautys-daughter/comment-page-1/#comment-3023</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=2132#comment-3023</guid>
		<description>Harold:  The idea is that a) beauty is costly to produce (in terms of using energy that could go for other things, like maintaining your  organs), b) beauty is less costly to produce if you happen to be particularly healthy, c) therefore, only the healthiest can afford to produce beauty, d) therefore the healthiest *do* produce beauty in order to advertise their healthiness; e) therefore beauty is desired, because of what it advertises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harold:  The idea is that a) beauty is costly to produce (in terms of using energy that could go for other things, like maintaining your  organs), b) beauty is less costly to produce if you happen to be particularly healthy, c) therefore, only the healthiest can afford to produce beauty, d) therefore the healthiest *do* produce beauty in order to advertise their healthiness; e) therefore beauty is desired, because of what it advertises.</p>
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