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	<title>Comments on: The Man Who Can&#8217;t Be Taxed</title>
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	<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/</link>
	<description>The Big Questions &#124; Tackling the Problems of Philosophy with Ideas from Mathematics, Economics, and Physics</description>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26844</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2011 01:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26844</guid>
		<description>Steve, I think the third paragraph of my second comment demonstrates clearly that I do understand that you were implicitly assuming that Kendrick was holding financial assets. But you still don&#039;t understand my argument regarding why your original post is misleading.

&quot;Tax burden&quot; is a standard term in public finance that refers to the loss of consumption imposed on someone that results from the COLLECTION of a tax. It is, as a matter of definition, a question of &quot;sources&quot; of government income, and is completely unrelated to the effects of the &quot;uses&quot; of that income.  For the reasons I laid out in my original comment, there is simply no tax burden in the unusual state of affairs you posited. 

YOUR point is simply that if the government spends the tax revenues it collects from Kendrick in a pattern that&#039;s different from the way they&#039;re being spent now (which is whatever way that Kendrick&#039;s capital is being invested), the pattern of consumption will change. That&#039;s a perfectly fine observation to make, but it ignores the very important fact that the entire POINT of taxing and spending by the government is to alter the pattern of consumption. In the standard case, the goal would be to shift production away from &quot;private&quot; consumption goods toward &quot;public&quot; goods. The welfare effect of such a shift depends on the extent to which the government spends its tax revenues efficiently, i.e., on goods for which the private sector faces higher costs of provision (including organizational costs) than does the public sector.

Given your past writings on the taxation of capital gains, I think the point you intended to make in your example was that the burden of a general tax on capital is shifted onto other factors of production when capital is in perfectly elastic long-run supply. That is a completely valid logical proposition. But a tax on a single individual--which is the way you set up the Kendrick example--will absolutely be borne by that individual, because changes in his supply of resources to the market will not be large enough to affect any general input prices at all. The weird thing about the case you posited is that targeting Kendrick doesn&#039;t even hurt him, because his marginal utility of income is zero, and so there&#039;s no tax burden at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I think the third paragraph of my second comment demonstrates clearly that I do understand that you were implicitly assuming that Kendrick was holding financial assets. But you still don&#8217;t understand my argument regarding why your original post is misleading.</p>
<p>&#8220;Tax burden&#8221; is a standard term in public finance that refers to the loss of consumption imposed on someone that results from the COLLECTION of a tax. It is, as a matter of definition, a question of &#8220;sources&#8221; of government income, and is completely unrelated to the effects of the &#8220;uses&#8221; of that income.  For the reasons I laid out in my original comment, there is simply no tax burden in the unusual state of affairs you posited. </p>
<p>YOUR point is simply that if the government spends the tax revenues it collects from Kendrick in a pattern that&#8217;s different from the way they&#8217;re being spent now (which is whatever way that Kendrick&#8217;s capital is being invested), the pattern of consumption will change. That&#8217;s a perfectly fine observation to make, but it ignores the very important fact that the entire POINT of taxing and spending by the government is to alter the pattern of consumption. In the standard case, the goal would be to shift production away from &#8220;private&#8221; consumption goods toward &#8220;public&#8221; goods. The welfare effect of such a shift depends on the extent to which the government spends its tax revenues efficiently, i.e., on goods for which the private sector faces higher costs of provision (including organizational costs) than does the public sector.</p>
<p>Given your past writings on the taxation of capital gains, I think the point you intended to make in your example was that the burden of a general tax on capital is shifted onto other factors of production when capital is in perfectly elastic long-run supply. That is a completely valid logical proposition. But a tax on a single individual&#8211;which is the way you set up the Kendrick example&#8211;will absolutely be borne by that individual, because changes in his supply of resources to the market will not be large enough to affect any general input prices at all. The weird thing about the case you posited is that targeting Kendrick doesn&#8217;t even hurt him, because his marginal utility of income is zero, and so there&#8217;s no tax burden at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26825</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 03:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26825</guid>
		<description>Stone Glasgow:

&lt;i&gt;There is a long gray line between “real” and “financial” assets.&lt;/i&gt;

No there&#039;s not.  Real assets are inputs to the production function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stone Glasgow:</p>
<p><i>There is a long gray line between “real” and “financial” assets.</i></p>
<p>No there&#8217;s not.  Real assets are inputs to the production function.</p>
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		<title>By: Stone Glasgow</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26815</link>
		<dc:creator>Stone Glasgow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 May 2011 22:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26815</guid>
		<description>Why do you consider financial assets to be unique? There is a long gray line between &quot;real&quot; and &quot;financial&quot; assets. What&#039;s the point of drawing a line?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you consider financial assets to be unique? There is a long gray line between &#8220;real&#8221; and &#8220;financial&#8221; assets. What&#8217;s the point of drawing a line?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26801</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 May 2011 04:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26801</guid>
		<description>Pat:  You&#039;ve quite missed the point of the example.  The key assumption is that Kendrick does not choose to consume resources.  Keeping canned food in a warehouse forever is as good as consuming it.  You are right that if he keeps his wealth in this form, and doesn&#039;t miss it when it&#039;s gone, then there&#039;s a free lunch waiting for the government (or whoever else manages to commandeer it).  But the whole point of the example was to distinguish between financial resources on the one hand and real resources on the other.  As long as Kendrick stores his wealth in the form of financial resources, he cannot provide any real resources to the govt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat:  You&#8217;ve quite missed the point of the example.  The key assumption is that Kendrick does not choose to consume resources.  Keeping canned food in a warehouse forever is as good as consuming it.  You are right that if he keeps his wealth in this form, and doesn&#8217;t miss it when it&#8217;s gone, then there&#8217;s a free lunch waiting for the government (or whoever else manages to commandeer it).  But the whole point of the example was to distinguish between financial resources on the one hand and real resources on the other.  As long as Kendrick stores his wealth in the form of financial resources, he cannot provide any real resources to the govt.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26799</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 May 2011 03:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26799</guid>
		<description>iceman,

Here&#039;s an example you may be able to understand, which exactly replicates my previous discussion in simple terms: Suppose Kendrick had kept his wealth as a gigantic stash of canned food in a warehouse. He never consumed any of it, and he never planned to consume any of it. Now the government taxes him by taking away some or all of his canned food and giving it to people who will eat it. Do you really think that there&#039;s a &quot;burden&quot; to this tax?

If you start a syllogism with a faulty premise, you&#039;ll reach a faulty conclusion. The faulty premise here is that there is &quot;always&quot; a burden of taxation, when the assumptions of the case at hand make it clear that there is none.

All sorts of other premises may be stipulated for this example, such as that Kendrick actually lent his wealth to other people and kept re-lending the interest he received on that wealth, which would be like letting people take his canned food in exchange for IOUs. Then a tax on Kendrick would cause a redistribution of consumption if the tax proceeds were spent in some way different from the status quo. This seems to be what Landsburg had in mind. There will be a reallocation of consumption due to the government&#039;s spending pattern, but that is simply not what economists generally mean when they discuss the burden of a tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iceman,</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an example you may be able to understand, which exactly replicates my previous discussion in simple terms: Suppose Kendrick had kept his wealth as a gigantic stash of canned food in a warehouse. He never consumed any of it, and he never planned to consume any of it. Now the government taxes him by taking away some or all of his canned food and giving it to people who will eat it. Do you really think that there&#8217;s a &#8220;burden&#8221; to this tax?</p>
<p>If you start a syllogism with a faulty premise, you&#8217;ll reach a faulty conclusion. The faulty premise here is that there is &#8220;always&#8221; a burden of taxation, when the assumptions of the case at hand make it clear that there is none.</p>
<p>All sorts of other premises may be stipulated for this example, such as that Kendrick actually lent his wealth to other people and kept re-lending the interest he received on that wealth, which would be like letting people take his canned food in exchange for IOUs. Then a tax on Kendrick would cause a redistribution of consumption if the tax proceeds were spent in some way different from the status quo. This seems to be what Landsburg had in mind. There will be a reallocation of consumption due to the government&#8217;s spending pattern, but that is simply not what economists generally mean when they discuss the burden of a tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinnlose Vermögenssteuern? &#124; Die Welt da draußen</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26777</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinnlose Vermögenssteuern? &#124; Die Welt da draußen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2011 21:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26777</guid>
		<description>[...] von einem Artikel im Bay Citizen ausgelöst wurde. Das der Diskussion zugrundeliegende Problem wird von Steve Landsburg formuliert, von Stephen Williamson am besten beschrieben, von Brad DeLong und Paul Krugman in der [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] von einem Artikel im Bay Citizen ausgelöst wurde. Das der Diskussion zugrundeliegende Problem wird von Steve Landsburg formuliert, von Stephen Williamson am besten beschrieben, von Brad DeLong und Paul Krugman in der [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Landsburg</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26749</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Landsburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2011 02:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26749</guid>
		<description>iceman:

&lt;i&gt;I think the idea is that if such resources exist, the government can simply “employ” them. The only reason to take Kendrick’s money first – and thereby call it “spending” — is if there is a resource owner who requires compensation (and some underlying moral or political calculus suggests this is a more palatable way to consummate the acquisition.) But that’s just saying there is in fact a cost, and we’re back to determining who really pays it at the end of the day. And that’s where the parallel to printing money is instructive.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes.  Exactly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iceman:</p>
<p><i>I think the idea is that if such resources exist, the government can simply “employ” them. The only reason to take Kendrick’s money first – and thereby call it “spending” — is if there is a resource owner who requires compensation (and some underlying moral or political calculus suggests this is a more palatable way to consummate the acquisition.) But that’s just saying there is in fact a cost, and we’re back to determining who really pays it at the end of the day. And that’s where the parallel to printing money is instructive.</i></p>
<p>Yes.  Exactly.</p>
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		<title>By: iceman</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26743</link>
		<dc:creator>iceman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 May 2011 22:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26743</guid>
		<description>Pat – “it cannot be true in the case of wealth that is earned, because the person who earned the wealth did so because his budget constraint was binding”

Why should the source of the wealth matter?  Clearly in this case someone prior to Kendrick continued to earn well beyond the point where their “budget constraint was binding” because they left a lot of it to him.  And why assume all of the wealth generated by a company over time is calibrated to someone’s initial budget constraint?  Perhaps the venture turned out to be more successful than they had expected.  And sometimes people just have a passion for creating value.
 
“none of this implies that people other than Kendrick are bearing the “burden” of the tax”

I don’t think there’s a “paradox” here, just much confusion over what the point of the initial post was (and wasn’t).  Landsburg stated as clearly as humanly possible that taxes generally impose a burden on someone (unless perhaps there are truly idle resources).  So if Kendrick gets zero marginal utility from his Pareto-optimal Lagrange thingy, that implies that the “someone” is other people (as Landsburg described, via an increase in prices and/or interest rates if consumption increases with no increase in the supply of real productive resources (as was assumed)).  

“it is like the site value of land in midtown Manhattan. It can be taxed with no resulting change in the allocation of resources”

I’m not sure what this post has to do with the price of real estate in Manhattan.  It is true that no matter how we tax it, a plot of land is unable to exhibit changes in its consumption pattern and it will continue to exist where it presently is.  But surely taxing it more affects its value to potential owners (e.g. its &quot;best and highest use&quot; could change, which could be a form of reallocation).  To the extent this can be translated to human beings, the fact that I can’t avoid a tax doesn’t mean I’m not impacted by it.  I pay my taxes because I don’t want to go to jail (among other reasons), but surely my consumption suffers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat – “it cannot be true in the case of wealth that is earned, because the person who earned the wealth did so because his budget constraint was binding”</p>
<p>Why should the source of the wealth matter?  Clearly in this case someone prior to Kendrick continued to earn well beyond the point where their “budget constraint was binding” because they left a lot of it to him.  And why assume all of the wealth generated by a company over time is calibrated to someone’s initial budget constraint?  Perhaps the venture turned out to be more successful than they had expected.  And sometimes people just have a passion for creating value.</p>
<p>“none of this implies that people other than Kendrick are bearing the “burden” of the tax”</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s a “paradox” here, just much confusion over what the point of the initial post was (and wasn’t).  Landsburg stated as clearly as humanly possible that taxes generally impose a burden on someone (unless perhaps there are truly idle resources).  So if Kendrick gets zero marginal utility from his Pareto-optimal Lagrange thingy, that implies that the “someone” is other people (as Landsburg described, via an increase in prices and/or interest rates if consumption increases with no increase in the supply of real productive resources (as was assumed)).  </p>
<p>“it is like the site value of land in midtown Manhattan. It can be taxed with no resulting change in the allocation of resources”</p>
<p>I’m not sure what this post has to do with the price of real estate in Manhattan.  It is true that no matter how we tax it, a plot of land is unable to exhibit changes in its consumption pattern and it will continue to exist where it presently is.  But surely taxing it more affects its value to potential owners (e.g. its &#8220;best and highest use&#8221; could change, which could be a form of reallocation).  To the extent this can be translated to human beings, the fact that I can’t avoid a tax doesn’t mean I’m not impacted by it.  I pay my taxes because I don’t want to go to jail (among other reasons), but surely my consumption suffers.</p>
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		<title>By: iceman</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26741</link>
		<dc:creator>iceman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 May 2011 22:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26741</guid>
		<description>Eric – “those 14 million [unemployed] people could be doing something useful.”  

I think the response would be that, as with steel or medicines etc., Kendrick is not hoarding any productive jobs either.  If we can find some idle real resources we might be able to give some people something “real” to do.  Otherwise we can fund make-work projects or extend unemployment benefits.  Any of these things could be similarly accomplished by printing new money rather than taking Kendrick’s (without risk to inflation in the Keynesian scenario in either case).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric – “those 14 million [unemployed] people could be doing something useful.”  </p>
<p>I think the response would be that, as with steel or medicines etc., Kendrick is not hoarding any productive jobs either.  If we can find some idle real resources we might be able to give some people something “real” to do.  Otherwise we can fund make-work projects or extend unemployment benefits.  Any of these things could be similarly accomplished by printing new money rather than taking Kendrick’s (without risk to inflation in the Keynesian scenario in either case).</p>
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		<title>By: iceman</title>
		<link>http://www.thebigquestions.com/2011/04/18/the-man-who-cant-be-taxed/comment-page-2/#comment-26740</link>
		<dc:creator>iceman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 May 2011 21:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thebigquestions.com/?p=5896#comment-26740</guid>
		<description>Enjoyed this post.  Really late to the game here, everyone has probably moved on, but just in case, some recent comments made me think…

vic – “idle resources that can be employed at no social cost will in fact be so employed only if the likes of Mr. Kendrick are taxed”  

I think the idea is that if such resources exist, the government can simply &quot;employ&quot; them.  The only reason to take Kendrick’s money first – and thereby call it “spending” -- is if there is a resource owner who requires compensation (and some underlying moral or political calculus suggests this is a more palatable way to consummate the acquisition.)  But that’s just saying there is in fact a cost, and we’re back to determining who really pays it at the end of the day.  And that’s where the parallel to printing money is instructive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoyed this post.  Really late to the game here, everyone has probably moved on, but just in case, some recent comments made me think…</p>
<p>vic – “idle resources that can be employed at no social cost will in fact be so employed only if the likes of Mr. Kendrick are taxed”  </p>
<p>I think the idea is that if such resources exist, the government can simply &#8220;employ&#8221; them.  The only reason to take Kendrick’s money first – and thereby call it “spending” &#8212; is if there is a resource owner who requires compensation (and some underlying moral or political calculus suggests this is a more palatable way to consummate the acquisition.)  But that’s just saying there is in fact a cost, and we’re back to determining who really pays it at the end of the day.  And that’s where the parallel to printing money is instructive.</p>
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